June 18th Update:
I'm consolidating the information that I've received from a number of sources (paid and free).
This means it's time to start editing some posts and bring a better overview into being.
Now we can put it all together and see where it takes us!
Tuesday, May 27, 2008
Monday, May 26, 2008
HHO Cell Design Questions
The concept of using electricity to convert water into a gaseous state is not far fetched. However, the science published on the internet today is more conjecture than theorem. In short, everything is there except the numbers.
What I've learned so far this weekend is that there are a lot of holes to be filled with regard to benchmarking the process. From a design perspective, it's all over the board. I would be curious to find out more about the design from an engineering perspective.
1. The Plates:
Material: Stainless Steel, Platinum, Aluminum,
Thickness: is thinner better? is there such a thing as too thin?
Separation: How far apart should the plates be? What happens when you make them closer or farther from each other?
Count: How many plates are enough? 6 plates work better or worse than 60?
2. The Power:
Input Power: What happens with 12v 1amp vs 240v 200amp?
3. The Reaction:
Water Volume: How much water is appropriate for a given cell design?
Catalyst: Baking soda or salt? How much of each? Why not both? What if none?
4. The Gas:
Dangers: Will this fill up the room and explode when the heater kicks on? Will it suffocate the dog if it gets turned on while i'm at work? will it break down something in my engine and cause my car to fail at 30k miles rather than 300k miles?
5. Effectiveness: Will it increase fuel mileage? will it be reliable? Will it require constant maintenance?
These are some of the questions that I would hope to answer. Although my general impression is that this is little more than snake oil pseudoscience, I'd still like to understanding "why", from an engineering perspective, that it "is" snake oil.
What I've learned so far this weekend is that there are a lot of holes to be filled with regard to benchmarking the process. From a design perspective, it's all over the board. I would be curious to find out more about the design from an engineering perspective.
1. The Plates:
Material: Stainless Steel, Platinum, Aluminum,
Thickness: is thinner better? is there such a thing as too thin?
Separation: How far apart should the plates be? What happens when you make them closer or farther from each other?
Count: How many plates are enough? 6 plates work better or worse than 60?
2. The Power:
Input Power: What happens with 12v 1amp vs 240v 200amp?
3. The Reaction:
Water Volume: How much water is appropriate for a given cell design?
Catalyst: Baking soda or salt? How much of each? Why not both? What if none?
4. The Gas:
Dangers: Will this fill up the room and explode when the heater kicks on? Will it suffocate the dog if it gets turned on while i'm at work? will it break down something in my engine and cause my car to fail at 30k miles rather than 300k miles?
5. Effectiveness: Will it increase fuel mileage? will it be reliable? Will it require constant maintenance?
These are some of the questions that I would hope to answer. Although my general impression is that this is little more than snake oil pseudoscience, I'd still like to understanding "why", from an engineering perspective, that it "is" snake oil.
What exactly are they selling? (products that convert water into fuel)
In short, most seem to be based on the same principle of generating Brown's Gas (
One of the most simple designs is here. It uses a couple of household items to generate a small amount of HHO. With all of the products, they follow a simple direction:
1. put metal plates in water
2. put salt or baking soda in the water
3. electrify the plates
4. watch the gas leave the water
5a. run the tube into your air filter so the gas finds it's way into your fuel mixture
5b. light a fire and listen to the gas pop
While these can be interesting to watch, this "show and tell" does little more than blanket youtube, metacafe, etc with poorly produced junior high level science projects.
Although you are being urged to install these devices in your personal vehicle, there are no numbers behind the science. Beyond the $49 the plans cost, you're given no engineering information about what this might do to your $10,000 to $40,000 car/truck.
The designs range from tiny to huge, small plates to large plates, little plates and big plates, small input power to large input power. However, there is no information as to "why" one would use a small plate vs a large plate, or why one would use a particular number of plates. There is no reliable information regarding how much energy is produced and how much energy is expended in order to produce the hho.
One of the most simple designs is here. It uses a couple of household items to generate a small amount of HHO. With all of the products, they follow a simple direction:
1. put metal plates in water
2. put salt or baking soda in the water
3. electrify the plates
4. watch the gas leave the water
5a. run the tube into your air filter so the gas finds it's way into your fuel mixture
5b. light a fire and listen to the gas pop
While these can be interesting to watch, this "show and tell" does little more than blanket youtube, metacafe, etc with poorly produced junior high level science projects.
Although you are being urged to install these devices in your personal vehicle, there are no numbers behind the science. Beyond the $49 the plans cost, you're given no engineering information about what this might do to your $10,000 to $40,000 car/truck.
The designs range from tiny to huge, small plates to large plates, little plates and big plates, small input power to large input power. However, there is no information as to "why" one would use a small plate vs a large plate, or why one would use a particular number of plates. There is no reliable information regarding how much energy is produced and how much energy is expended in order to produce the hho.
Sunday, May 25, 2008
HHO, should we believe the hype?
According to various websites, HHO is the answer to our gas problems. Since gas has reached the $4.00 mark, people are desperate. Many people argue that the science behind HHO is fact and many people argue that it is fiction.
Rather than jumping on a particular bandwagon, I'll preface my opinions as skeptical due to the absence of validation. Of course the science seems to be pseudoscience left over from the 1970s. The times are perfect to sell snake oil, so research will certainly have to be done in order to overcome the notion that "just because it's on the net it has to be true".
In short, thanks to the current state of the internet, it's nearly impossible to do valid research on HHO. A google search on HHO or any of it's variants will lead one to a list of sites that promote or discredit based on little more than opinion or a nice smoke/mirror showing.
Remember, watching a video of bubbling water does not constitute an automotive grade fuel. Again, I'm not entirely ready to say that you're not getting your $49 to $99 worth out of the information they sell. Until I see some real science, it's more likely that your money will do little more than signify your disgust with the current gas prices.
We all want fuel prices that will not adversely effect our economy. We're seeing people have trouble getting their kids to school, pay for products that have to be shipped long distances, get to work, or even skipping vacations due to fuel prices.
At the same time, none of us like being lied to or being taken advantage of. The water4gas setups seem to be doing just that. Even if it did work, the setup and maintenance is above and beyond what the average person can undertake as a long term solution. Most of the plans sold will never be built. Of the ones that are built, many will never be installed. Of the ones that are installed, many will be abandoned after a short while. In the end, the people selling the information will probably make a fortune with no regard for the lack of feasibility or practicality of the information they are selling.
Tomorrow I hope to begin posting a thing or two that i've learned along my journey to HHO enlightenment...
Rather than jumping on a particular bandwagon, I'll preface my opinions as skeptical due to the absence of validation. Of course the science seems to be pseudoscience left over from the 1970s. The times are perfect to sell snake oil, so research will certainly have to be done in order to overcome the notion that "just because it's on the net it has to be true".
In short, thanks to the current state of the internet, it's nearly impossible to do valid research on HHO. A google search on HHO or any of it's variants will lead one to a list of sites that promote or discredit based on little more than opinion or a nice smoke/mirror showing.
Remember, watching a video of bubbling water does not constitute an automotive grade fuel. Again, I'm not entirely ready to say that you're not getting your $49 to $99 worth out of the information they sell. Until I see some real science, it's more likely that your money will do little more than signify your disgust with the current gas prices.
We all want fuel prices that will not adversely effect our economy. We're seeing people have trouble getting their kids to school, pay for products that have to be shipped long distances, get to work, or even skipping vacations due to fuel prices.
At the same time, none of us like being lied to or being taken advantage of. The water4gas setups seem to be doing just that. Even if it did work, the setup and maintenance is above and beyond what the average person can undertake as a long term solution. Most of the plans sold will never be built. Of the ones that are built, many will never be installed. Of the ones that are installed, many will be abandoned after a short while. In the end, the people selling the information will probably make a fortune with no regard for the lack of feasibility or practicality of the information they are selling.
Tomorrow I hope to begin posting a thing or two that i've learned along my journey to HHO enlightenment...
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